Why?
Why does the US turn a blind eye to what is happening?
Why is Canada suddenly turning it's back on decades of inparitality to fully support (more than any other country) Israel?
Why is Israel so determined to kill so many people? What happened to "an eye for an eye"?
Also, I'm sorry this doesn't sound more impartial, after so many weeks I'm having a hard time not yelling about all of this.
10 comments:
I do not feel like I know enough about the situation to feel as if Israel is right or wrong.
Aren't they attacking because they are constantly being threatened by "Hamas" and their rockets?
It seems like the US and Canada agree that Israel should be able to do what they are doing for the sake of defending themselves against enemies. That's the evaluation of the Canada and US government officials.
Maybe they are wrong, I'm not sure. Maybe Israel is being overly agressive. I do not know how to judge the extent of what is neccesary in this situation.
Why do you think Israel has done wrong in this circumstance?
Here are a few articles to help answer your questions. The first one states what the U.S. thinks of the newest cease fire.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/AP/Search/World/Default.aspx?id=389050
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=375528
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=377840
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=377894
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Security/Default.aspx?id=374172
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Security/Default.aspx?id=370590
You need to realize that these are not unprovoked attacks by the Israelies. You also need to realize that the reason so many civilians are being killed is because Hamas knows that if they hide where the civilians are and the Israelies attack them there, the "civilized world" will have huge outcries. The Hamas are COWARDS who use their own civilians as shields.
Before you answer me, please read these articles. I think they give the other point of view that I don't think you are hearing. The perspective article gives a VERY good description as to why Israel has a right to that land. I also thought the one article had a very good point about the relationship between Palestine and Israel. You need to think of this situation as Mexico firing on Texas for a decade during a "cease-fire", killing innocent civilians, but maybe not in a huge scale because the U.S. has greater technology and they are able to hide whenever the rockets come in. When that cease-fire is over and the U.S. who had been honoring that cease-fire decided to retaliate, you can bet Mexico would be destroyed. Oh we would do our best not to hurt innocent civilians, but if their ring leaders were COWARDS and hid in crowded apartments, the U.S. would do what they had to do to protect their citizens...
Anyway...I'm a little prejudiced as well considering the unbalanced news reports that are being fired off...not to mention the fact that the Israelites are STILL God's chosen people. You have to remember that the news wants ratings and they are going to give you whatever they think will make you feel anger/pity, whatever will keep you tuning in. If that means turning Israel into a bully, then so be it. People cheer for the "little guy" and the media feeds off of that.
Read these articles before you respond, please.
Ok, all articles read. I'll deal with specific questions I have to them at the end.
First of all, and I probably should have put this in the original post, I am a pacifist. More specifically, since pacifism is a spectrum, I fall into the area where I believe there is never, ever, ever a good enough reason to go to war. I still step on bugs and kill mice. I still think police officers are necessary but I think it would be great if we could manage it without firearms a la British style. But yes, I do not think the sacrifice of human life should ever be necessary to maintain power or rights or ideals. I’m sure there will be disagreement about this. It is, however, central to my thoughts on this issue. I don’t care who is right or wrong, I just care about who is dead.
How are Israelis still God’s chosen people? I thought there was no Jew or Greek anymore in God’s eyes.
I fully understand that Hamas was shelling Israel. I also fully understand that Israel and Egypt shut the borders and Israel refused to pay back the taxes it collected. I also understand that it was Israel who, a month before the end of the ceasefire, started firing into Gaza, which, of course, resulted in the resumption of Hamas rockets. I also acknowledge that Israel only let out Gazans who happened to be a duel citizen of a country that mattered. Even the Canadian foreign minister had a hard time getting Canadian Gazans out. There was no allowance for refugees. They were shooting fish in a barrel. They were shooting fish in a barrel with chemical weapons. (I’m not sure why Canada was then still supporting Israel, especially since we ratified the treaty against chemical weapons in 1997.) As for the idea that people in Gaza could go somewhere where the bombs were not falling- most of the Gaza strip is city. It’s tiny and has more than 1 million inhabitants. Most of the fields and olive groves that do exist have been flattened. The Red Cross was contacted by many families asking where they should go. The Red Cross asked Israel, who said it was too dangerous for the families to move or for the Red Cross to go in and help.
I do not believe that Israel has a right to that land any more than I have a right to land in the Netherlands. My people were run off simply because of their religious affiliation. And yes, I am 100% Dutch Mennonite, in every direction- even with a little inbreeding :). So if Israel has a right to land that they lost thousands of years ago, I think I should have a right to my ancestor’s land that they lost only 500 years ago. But of course, that’s ridiculous. There was no treaty to honour and so no reason why I should get that land. If the western world wanted to feel better after World War II, we should have given them land in Europe or Russia or North America.
Ok, articles/editorials:
Ist- AP article Rice’s agreement with Olmert part of ceasefire. Why am I reading the first article? I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be seeing in this one.
2nd- media biased toward Hamas. I would disagree from the CNN coverage that I did see. From what I’ve read, it sounds like the Israelis themselves have had more comprehensive coverage.
3rd piece- Not a lot of history is absolutely known, but it is known that Israel was not in independent kingdom at any time after the Babylonians. They were always the vassals of a larger state. The term Palestine did come from the Romans, but similar early terms came from the Egyptians, the Assyrians, and the Greeks.
4th piece- Mexico analogy. In my opinion the Mexico/Texas analogy only works if you add in the fact that Texas would have to have shut all the borders into Mexico and taken their tax money because Mexico voted in a government that Texas didn’t like, and then that Texas proceeded to kill over 300 children. The cease fire had not been in effect for 10 years, but for 6 months. There have been previous cease fires.
5th- election show of force. Convenient timing! I love how they wrapped things up right before Obama came in and started right after the Christmas Tourist season. Elections should never cost human lives, especially when politicians are simply trying to look in charge. How is this going to help the situation? Will it not radicalize Palestinians even more?
6th- divided peace partner. Again, in my opinion, trying to work with two fighting organizations isn’t easy or fun, but not worth the lives of human beings.
Thank you for stating your beliefs. That does help in clarifying your position. I don't have much of a response for you because your beliefs do not allow for argument. And I do not disagree with your beliefs, unfortunately because of sin, I do not think they are very attainable.
I did have a clarifying question for you. So, being a pacifist, would you stand by and allow people to attack your family and do nothing to stop them? If violence was the only way they would listen to you, would you use violence? And I am saying "if" so hypothetically.
You and I both have been very blessed to live in a very sheltered world where being a pacifist is an option. Unfortunately in that part of the world it is either kill or be killed. The Hamas is not satisfied with simply getting "their land" back. They don't want to "talk" things over with Israel. They want the nation of Israel and all Jews destroyed. And they don't think much better of Christians.
I agree that the loss of life is horrible, but it is never one-sided. Every aspect of war is complicated. Those in Israel would think it was horrible that their children had to go into bomb shelters on weekly basis to avoid rocket attacks for years on end. And yet the media rarely commented on the constant attacks against Israel because they happened so often and because the loss of life wasn't "as" great--again because of technology. Of course you would agree that any loss of life is great.
I would also point out that death is just an end to life here on earth and when God calls us home, our purposes here are done--no matter HOW we die. We must live with an eternal perspective. Our time here is just a drop in the bucket. I would also point out that God Himself used war as a tool to bring about His Will many times in the Old Testament. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God states through Solomon in Ecclesiastes 3:8 that "there is a time for war." When Christ returns, you can bet Armageddon will be a big war.
The Bible says during the end times there will be "wars and rumors of wars"...we are living in the end times.
Matthew 24:4-7 "Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."
Actually all of Matthew 24 (well all of the Bible!) is an interesting read and very telling about today! Get ready...it will only get worse!
As far as Israel being God's chosen people. You are right to an extent. In God's eyes we are equal in that we all (including Jews) must choose to follow Christ as our savior to be saved from Hell, and God opened the door so that anyone can come whether Jew or Greek. But "The Church" and "Israel" are two separate entities. People who are part of Israel can be adopted into the Church, but not vice versa.
The Bible has all sorts of prophecies about Israel in the end times. They are a major player. The Bible has separate prophecies about the church--also a major player...but separate.
As usual, I found someone else's argument to make my point :-D. I have NO idea who this guy is or if I agree with him on any other issue, but he lays it out pretty clearly in this article/blog/whatever.
http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/godschosen.html
And if you, believe that Israel is still God's chosen people, then it is in your best interest to defend "her":
Genesis 12:1-3: " 1 The LORD had said to Abram, 'Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
'I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.'"
Frankly, I would rather my country be blessed than cursed...
Ok. There are many different directions this conversation could take!
Do you wish me to respond on:
-whether or not I think we are in the end times
-end times belief in history
-the interpretation of some of the passages used in the article
-whether I believe the current political Israel is the Israel of Revelations
-my pacifism stance
-the bias of the media in the I/P war
-God and Christ and war in the Bible.
So yes, I have lots I could say, but am tired! So let me know what you want to hear. If it is all of it, it will take me a bit but I will try to get to it!
HM- what in today's world make you believe that we are currently in the end times?
(I'm guessing that you are either mid-trib or post-trib then in your end times belief paradigm. :) )
Here is an article that explains exactly what I believe about how Christians ought to view the Israel-Palestine situation.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2002/1200_Do_Jews_Have_a_Divine_Right_in_the_Promised_Land/
Let me clarify what I feel is the end times. My husband would argue that the end times Biblically is the time from Christ's resurrection until the rapture. I personally use the term "end times" to refer to the generation before the rapture.
I am pre-trib. I feel that the Bible is fairly clear that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. However I have heard some good mid-trib arguments. I do not feel there is any Biblical basis for post-trib. I would say the rapture will usher in the tribulation. The tribulation will last 7 years. Then the 2nd Coming/Glorious Appearing, followed by Armageddon, the 1000 year reign and then eternity.
The signs of the end times such as wars, earthquakes and famine have been around since the resurrection, however, there are other prophecies that have just recently been fulfilled. One of the greatest signs fulfilled within this generation being the restoration of Israel.
Most prophecy scholars agree that the generation that saw Israel restored to her land could well be the "generation that will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" in Matthew 24:32-34.
If you are really curious, I recommend reading "Are We Living in the End Times" by Tim LaHaye...very interesting, and I feel that he explains prophecy in an easy to understand way.
In that book, Dr. LaHaye points to the passage in Ezekiel 37 as just one of the MANY promises that could be named regarding the regathering of Israel. (Specifically Ez. 37:7-11; 21-23).
Later he goes on to state that the only part of Ezekiel's vision that has yet to be fulfilled relates to the statement "but there was no breath in them" Ez. 37:8. Referring to the Holy Spirit. He believes that this agrees with many passages that predict a great spiritual awakening when the Jews will call upon the Messiah they rejected. (Joel 2:18-32, Zechariah 12:10-13:2, Romans 11:26-27, Rev. 7:1-10). And he points out that this revival is the ONLY part of this prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled.
So in brief--yes, I believe we are living in the end times. There are too many prophecies that have been fulfilled even within the last ten years to name them all, but the strongest is Israel's restoration. And I won't be commenting any more on that. If you want to study it for yourself, I can recommend several great books/authors that can give you better insight than I can. :-D
HM- not more commenting on end times??! Well alright, but you're missing out on a great debate with Chris about Dispensationism and the Reformer tradition!
Please also do not feel that I support anti-semitism in any shape or form because I do not support the political state of Israel, the way it exists, but more importantly, its actions. I had not even thought people still thought people thought like that! (Did that sentence make any sense?) I thought that argument had died after WWII. I am all for the human rights for every single baby on this earth, no matter which side of a political line they live. I do not believe a Palestinian baby has any more, or any less worth in God's eyes than an Israeli baby. I do not, however, believe that it is a human right to have a nation that is distinctly for, or favouring one's ethnic heritage.
Chris- I think I agree with most, if not all, of what Piper said. I would have added a stronger emphasis on the way that we treat both nations in practicality and not just how we view them.
So HM (or Chris), was there anything in my mockably long list that you do want me to comment on?
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